Forum - View topicFate/Zero (TV).
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EmbraceMe
 Posts: 2013 Location: Growing old and jaded. |
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I definitely enjoyed the second half much more than the first half; the first half had lengthy dialogue which bored me at times but the second half cuts straight to the interesting stuff. Fate/Zero has flaws but those are more of adaption issues. I didn't find anything that made me feel that show isn't worthy of being what I rated it - Masterpiece*.
*A rewatch of the show is required because I'm honestly stuck between Excellent and Masterpiece. I gave it the latter grade because of the initial watch.
It could had been more beautiful if spoiler[they flashed to the animation of Shirley asking Kiritsugu what he wanted to be.] That's how I imagined it at least. It would pack more emotional impact than what they used. I'm a little disappointed in how it was handled.
I thought it was an adaption change when that episode occurred so I withheld speaking about it. I probably should had withheld some of my earlier comments about the show until the next episode. They fixed quite a few things in the end. Hopefully the BDs will fix everything else. I've the LN on my harddrive so I think I should start reading it now. I wished the actual translation was printed on paper so I could enjoy it while traveling as I hate reading on tablets... Printing hundreds of pages doesn't seem too fun to me. Since ufotable did a great job, here's hope to a F/SN readaption or a Heaven's Feel adaption. |
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Errinundra
Moderator
 Posts: 6523 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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I've rated it as very good: that is, on par with the first half. I don't watch anime for the fights - they rarely have much appeal for me. In Fate / Zero what I enjoyed most was the adult characters with their motivations, schemes and manipulations of friend and foe alike. Accordingly, as the characters died off and the focus turned towards the physical duels, I found the series became less interesting, especially after Kiritsugu's amazing destruction of Kayneth. Kiritsugu's backstory episodes spoiled the momentum of the series and some of the developments - zombies & the Aoi / Kariya confrontation to name two - seriously stretched credibility.
For all that, the penultimate episode was superb. The Grail's temptation of Kiritsugu was one of the highlights of the entire series. Some events in the episode did seem rushed (and even truncated) but I agree with others here that the problem will probably be rectified on disk. I also appreciated how the final episode tied up most of the loose ends and also agree with others that the final scenes with both Kiritsugu and Sabre were outstanding. I think Key is spot on when he says that F/Z enhances F/SN. Whereas the prequel could be regarded as the tragedy of Sabre and Kiritsugu (even though Kiritsugu comes through with new ideals to guide him), the older series can now be seen as the redemption of Sabre. Because of his role in that process, it also helps gives Shirow more depth in F/SN than I had given him credit for. In spite of what I said earlier, the standout fight for me was the aerial duel between Archer and Berserker. None of the subsequent fights ever managed to reach those heights again (so to speak). Question: is that a young Taiga Fujimura playing in the background as the Emiya dojo is being restored? 
Last edited by Errinundra on Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Etrien
 Posts: 525 Location: Tokyo, Japan |
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Man, that was an incredible finale.
I really can't say how it would have seemed if I had no knowledge of Fate/Stay Night (or even worse, if I didn't know F/SN existed). It might have still been great - I really can't say. But, since I do have familiarity with F/SN, I have to say that the ending actually exceeded my expectations. Namely, as others have said, the ending was constructed in a way that it actually raised my appreciation of F/SN tremendously. One of my biggest complaints with F/SN was that, like many shounen series, it was a bit too saccharine, childish, and idealistic to take seriously. But, if we start off with Fate/Zero - which is harsh, cruel reality (taken to extremes) with unrewarded efforts and tragic ends - it creates a void for idealism to fill. We've seen the cruelty the world can offer, so now we need a "hero" who can stand up against that with blind yet noble idealism. It makes it so that (F/SN) spoiler[Shiro and his idealism is the counterpoint and the rebuttal to F/Z's world, and helps distinguish him as a uniquely idealistic individual in an otherwise potentially dark, cruel world, rather than the more generic "idealistic hero in an idealistic world". It also adds even more poignancy to F/SN's Archer, now that we've also "experienced" the cruelty of the world that can crush those ideals. Plus, I second the observations about Saber, and F/SN being her chance at redemption.] It's been years since I saw F/SN, so this is all going off old memories, but to me it really feels like Fate/Zero's conclusion adds a new level of depth to F/SN's plot and makes it seem far less generic. That all said, my overall feelings about the show are similar to errinundra's, although my final score is a bit different. I think I might have liked the first half slightly better, for the same reason that was already listed:
Combine that with the fact that my few complaints happened almost exclusively in the second half, it left me with a tiny bit of disappointment. The way the Kariya/Aoi sequence was handled really left a bad taste in my mouth (for reasons explained earlier in the thread). Enough so that I thought it had probably knocked F/Z down to a permanent "B" Grade. However, I liked this ending so much that I think it might bump it back up to an "A". (I've got to sit on it for a while to be sure.) But it really had A+ potential. And when so, so, SO few shows even reach that level of potential, seeing it fall down to "just an A" largely from one bad scene is disappointing. (The Kariya scene was not my only complaint with the show, but it was the only one that I couldn't really get past.) Also, before anyone says anything like "How could you consider F/Z to be A+ material??", let me add that for me A+ on anime does not equate perfect. I have never seen a "perfect" show. I probably never will. A+ just means it stands among the best shows I've seen. Oh, and that's totally Taiga in that picture. |
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Rhyono
Posts: 1039 |
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That's how I saw it in my head while watching it, but that is a good instance in which they should've made it so I didn't have to imagine it. |
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Gon*Gon
 Posts: 679 |
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I was prepared for this kind of ending since I saw it coming, but god dammnit Urobuchi, it's like he feeds off the depression of his audience.
Let's see, my assessment for this series, it's pointless to list all the goods, because there's too many to list. So let's celebrate the awesomeness of this show by listing off whatever bads I can scrape up! These criticisms may also spill into the Light Novels themselves. ->at the LN in particular, Caster's obsession with Jeanne D'arc, we know Caster is Gille de Rais, and that he once served under Jeanne's command, but not once in all the stories regarding Jeanne or Gille did I find any strong connection between the two beyond the fact that Gille served Jeanne. I wish they fleshed out this part more and justified Caster's obsession ->at the anime, I was hoping they'd animate spoiler[Saber]'s fight with spoiler[Berserker] a bit more. Their fight was so short and most of the episode merely focused on spoiler[Kiritsugu and Kirei] only, it feels like spoiler[Saber and Berserker]'s fight was cut-short ->at the LN in particular, I wish we caught a glimpse of Ilya's life spoiler[after never seeing Kiritsugu ever again. Considering how innocent she was in Fate/Zero, and how she's such a psycho in Fate/Stay Night,] it would be visually see exactly what she's been through during the years between Fate/Zero and Fate/Stay Night ->at the LN in particular, it felt likespoiler[ Irisviel's part ended a bit too fast. Although this last point is easily the most nitpicky of all of them my "bad" points. I mean, not even a flashback or anything like Shirley got in the end.] ->Where is thespoiler[ Archer vs. Saber fight?! At the beginning of Fate/Stay Night, we were shown Saber and Archer fighting in the very beginning since the very first second of that series was the very end of Fate/Zero] Of course these are all nitpicks(except the last point, that was MAJOR). And I chose to list bad points because it'll take far too much work to list the good points it has, not to mention, they're all too predictable. *Ahem* Now before I make my leave, please give me the honour of making a sexistly tasteless joke I've been holding back... Gon*Gon: "Gee! This show sure loves to spoiler[objectify Irisviel! I sure hope her cute little daughter doesn't get objectified like Iri did!] 
[EDIT: Added several spoiler tags. What did I say about F/SN spoilers? - Key] |
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Dessa
 Posts: 4438 |
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jl07045
 Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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I'd rank the series at 7.5 or 8/10. I thought it was a good adaptation. I enjoyed it quite a lot. The visual design was great and the fight animation as well. It did away with some of the stupid narrator-like exposition in the novels (the first Saber Lancer duel still felt like a Naruto fight) but also cut out some of the small details that explain the characters better, the penultimate episode was a bit rushed, but apparently there will be more scenes in the BDs. I generally like Kenji Kawai better, but Kajiura had some nice tracks here and there and mostly got the atmosphere right.
What problems I have with it are mostly with the source material. It sometimes seems that Urobuchi enjoys torturing his characters (or feels like he has to) and I intensely dislike that. Because of that the grimness was very oppressive at times and the plot developments seemed orchestrated to deliver the worst possible conclusion (Kayneth and especially Kariya). His characters are also hit or miss for me. Some of his Servants like Alexander and Diarmuid are quite interesting and their dynamic with their masters was fun to watch. Gilgamesh also was a much better and more fleshed out character than in F/SN. Caster on the other hand is a caricature that is neither funny nor dread inducing, just like his master. The main problem for me was Kiritsugu. I thought he was a weak main character. Even though parallels could be drawn with Shirou and Archer, their psychological profile was well established through nightmares/flashbacks and their actions throughout the war. Kiritsugu's rationale was pretty much put in front of us and the whole series he was either regretting something or being a massive douche. I am also skeptical that he would still hold on to his views after being a mercenary, going through war zones and killing people all the time. It makes him feel much more immature than Shirou who's an inexperienced kid with a much better established trauma. Last edited by jl07045 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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_Archer_
Posts: 110 |
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Fate Stay Night is not a shounen series. Please do not try and imply that it is one. My only complaint about the last episode is how they handled spoiler[ the scene with Kariya and Sakura. That scene was originally meant to show how worthless and damaging Kariya's efforts had truly been, since in the LN Kariya's death results in Sakura learning to never go against Zouken and just further mentally scars her. Instead, the anime implies that she already knew this and she just comes across as cruel. ] |
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Rhyono
Posts: 1039 |
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I'm not really sure if your comment was playful (didn't look it), but all of the sources I've checked confirm that it is shounen. |
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Kirkdawg
 Subscriber Posts: 742 Location: California, USA |
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And a new generation of Type-Moon and Fate fans were born. Welcome to the club.
Excellent series. Will remember this one for years to come, I can only hope a remake for F/SN is in the works because god damn DEEN. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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What was so bad about DEEN? I say this because I'm not familiar with the game but also because I really didn't find much to dislike about the original series except the pacing which was a bit slow.
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Dessa
Posts: 4438 |
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@Xanas
The original anime, when taken on its own by its own merits, is not a bad series. There are things they could have done better, but it's not a bad series, and is a decent introduction to the franchise, for people who know nothing about it. That being said, the reason that most fans of the franchise have a problem with it, is because there were a lot of problems with it as compared to the Visual Novel. One of the biggest complaints, is that instead of just adapting Fate (the first route of the VN), they made an amalgamation of Fate, Unlimited Blade Works (route 2), Heaven's Feel (route 3), and Hollow Ataraxia (sequel/side VN). They also completely made up and added scenes in, such as spoiler[the stuff with Caster and Sakura, although there is some basis for where they developed it from], and, more important to this thread, spoiler[the idea that a battle between Gilgamesh and Saber is what caused the fire] in the previous war. I hadn't realized that the latter scene wasn't canon, and went into Fate/Zero expecting to see that beautifully animated. I won't lie, it did disappoint me a bit, and if you read the recent posts, you'll see that I wasn't the only one surprised that the scene was missing. |
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RGaspar
 Posts: 236 |
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Holy shit, that was a hell of an ending =D
Just watched it like 5 minutes ago and loved it. As for the series overall, I enjoyed part 2 more than the first (S2 delivered, S1 teased), but I don't consider it a masterpiece, though. There's more talk than needed, and sometimes they didn't even said interesting stuff. And there's some forced drama from time to time (particularly Kariya's). Anyway, it's very very nice. Key has a good point there, F/SN looks better after seeing this. There's so much foreshadowing I wasn't really expecting: spoiler[Shiro's "I'll become the hero" promise, Saber in despair, Sakura's coldness and even Taiga] (Thanks to Errinunda, that pointed that out, I missed it the first time). I'd kill for a remake of FS/N made by this studio. Btw...I don't get why Gilgamesh was spoiler[naked there. Did he become a real human?? (if that's true, how come this corporeal Gilgamesh wasn't around for the sequel?)] Last but not least. If you didn't see or read Fate Stay Night, this ending is totally depressing, isn't it? To me this finale was just the beginning, but for someone that's a newcomer, wow. I wouldn't like to be in your shoes 
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Kirkdawg
Subscriber Posts: 742 Location: California, USA |
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Nasu laid the groundwork for what Gen filled the blanks in with. Everything you guys are praising F/Z for amplifying was something Nasu had already hinted about/suggested in F/SN. I agree with the assessment it is nice to see the writing contrast in styles between idealism and realism. They compliment one another well.
Also, Gilgamesh was manifested in F/SN as well I believe. It's been a while, but I don't think he was in corporal form-how else could he have sustained himself without killing people for 10 years? I would pay good money to see a F/SN produced by Ufotable in it's entirity. Hopefully a production committee in the near future sees value in doing so. EDIT: Also, to add to the DEEN critique-have you seen the animation of F/SN? It's horrid. Try comparing it to Ufotable. |
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Rhyono
Posts: 1039 |
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@Kirkdawg
F/Z was like a high-budget sienen, while F/SN looks like a low-budget shonen. I enjoyed F/SN, but from the very first episode I hated the animation. |
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