Forum - View topicFate/Zero (TV).
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Kirkdawg
 Subscriber Posts: 742 Location: California, USA |
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What exactly are you responding to? As far as I can tell we're in agreement. |
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Rhyono
Posts: 1039 |
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A response does not always have to be argumentative, does it? I was merely agreeing.
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Kirkdawg
Subscriber Posts: 742 Location: California, USA |
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Just a friendly reminder, but this is the internet. You'll have to forgive me for perceiving your response in that light. As a sign of my sincerest apologies, let us hold hands and sing coom-bah-ya. 
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Dessa
 Posts: 4438 |
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Gilgamesh did have a physical form in F/sn. As for how he sustained himself... (F/sn VN spoilers for Fate route) (1) spoiler[Gil's Independent Action rank is A+, which allows him to stay in the world indefinitely, even without a master. What would require Prana would be using his Noble Phantasms] which leads to (2) spoiler[ While Shiro was technically the only survivor of the fire, there were others who... did not die. In Fate, you learn that Kotomine collected them all and kept them in the Church's basement, just barely alive, so that Gil could use them as Prana sources.] |
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Jedi Master
 Posts: 400 |
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I've often felt that the VN's fan's criticism of the F/SN anime was a huge impediment to growing the fanbase in the west. I've seen "hardcore fans" actually *yell* at people who expressed interest in the F/SN anime to not bother and play the VN instead because the anime "is garbage". 
...What a great way to not creep people out and convince them to avoid the franchise altogether. 
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Kirkdawg
Subscriber Posts: 742 Location: California, USA |
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Jedi Master did someone yell at you for enjoying the F/SN anime?
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Etrien
 Posts: 525 Location: Tokyo, Japan |
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Eh, you'll find those kinds in the fanbases of most adapted series, I think. I've even seen people give that kind of reaction over Harry Potter when someone mentioned liking the movies. Granted, I do think this kind of behavior is more pervasive in the anime community. Which sucks, because if you consider yourself a reasonable fan, you're still going to be associated with that type of fan by people outside the loop. And as for the DEEN hate... They've just built up a reputation of doing sub-par adaptations. I'm not anti-adaptation, nor am I a purest who thinks an adaptation needs to be a mirror of its source. But, sometimes an adaptation really is bad. I thought the F/SN anime was "good but not great", and how much of that was due to a bad adaptation and how much was due to the story itself, I couldn't say. |
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_Archer_
Posts: 110 |
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Fate Stay/Night is an Eroge. It by definition cannot be shounen, and anime adaptations take on the demographic of whatever they are adapting, otherwise there wouldn't really be a way to determine the demographic than looking at the time something airs, and that too can prove problematic. Any site categorizing it as shounen should probably get a better editor or content manager. The only "shounen" thing about FSN is the manga, but even eroge like Yosuga no Sora can get shounen manga adaptations. However it is still a chuuni title which is probably what causes such confusion. @Jedi Master I imagine most people would yell at you for watching the FSN anime because it leaves out a TON of things (particularly the last route which is often regarded as the best part of FSN in the western community, though I've heard that it is seen as the least liked route in Japan) and does a fairly poor job of explaining the themes of the VN. The fact that it leaves a negative impression of Shirou on people so often is another fault of the adaptation despite the fact that I've seen many people argue he's one of the most well written protagonists in anime/manga/LN/VN fandom, a statement I fully agree with. They would also probably yell at you for not reading the VN because it also helps answer lots of questions you could have about Zero, the most popular of which I've generally seen to be spoiler[ Why doesn't Kariya use Berserker to kill Zouken? ] which is easily answerable to anyone who has read the VN. As a stand alone thing, the FSN anime is pretty good, but the VN is just miles better. spoiler[ The first fight in the VN, Archer vs Lancer is one of the best fights in the VN, and it looks awful in the anime. I don't even think the anime even got across one of the most interesting things about that fight. ] |
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Rhyono
Posts: 1039 |
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It's "Kumbaya", noob. 
@_Archer_ You said the manga could be considered shounen, but you don't consider the anime to be? |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18198 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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There's nothing "shonen" about the anime, and anyone who tries to classify it as such doesn't have a proper understanding of what shonen is.
Fortunately I wasn't drinking anything when I read this sentence or I would have spit it out all over the computer. If F/SN ever makes its way to the States in any legal, affordable fashion then I'll have to check it out just to see how someone could possibly justify a statement like that. Last edited by Key on Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Etrien
Posts: 525 Location: Tokyo, Japan |
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Now that F/Z has ended, I'm rewatching F/SN to see how it works as a followup. Someday (interest and time permitting) I'd like to take a run through the VN as well, but for now I'm rewatching the anime version. Main reason being that F/Z is very recommend-worthy, and I can say with some certainty that most people I'd recommend F/Z to would never read the VN of either. So, they'd be more likely to follow up with the F/SN anime, and I'm curious as to what that complete experience is like.
I'm trying to watch the episodes from the perspective of someone who has only seen F/Z and has no familiarity with F/SN, to try to see how they might now interpret things. At 4 episodes in, I've got to say that it's actually been really enjoyable so far. F/Z flows into F/SN really well, and the backstory already explained in F/Z fixes so, so many of the little complaints I had about the beginning of F/SN. Is it spoilerish already knowing that spoiler[Sakura and Kirei are involved from the beginning?] Sure, but it's also drastically more enjoyable and makes it feel less generic. spoiler[(Sakura was one of my least favorite characters originally just because she was so archetypical. Starting off with her backstory established changes that dramatically.)] I don't know if it'll get weaker as it goes on, but the first four episodes are exponentially better if taken with F/Z. (The "wacky antics" and repeated SD-ification brought on by Taiga are kind of jarring, but thankfully minimal.)
The anime is not an eroge. Who needs sex when you can have...uh...CG Dragons? When stripped of its unnecessary erotica, the remaining story of F/SN is very shounen-esque. I'd assume that's a factor in why the manga adaptation is serialized in a shounen magazine. And, while I would still somewhat disagree with the notion that "eroge = not shounen" as a rule, it's irrelevant here. In my comment that you quoted, I was comparing F/SN to other shounen series not because of its official designation, but because of its content and execution. IE, I was using "shounen" as a sub-genre rather than a demographic. You're free to disagree, of course, but that's my stance.
And about the whole "yelling" thing... There's a huge difference between expressing your opinion about the adaptation and being a dick about it. If someone thinks the anime omitted or misrepresented too much, fine, but that's no reason to be rude to someone for watching the adaptation. If someone is too forceful about these things, all they'll do is succeed in killing someone's interest in even trying the story, which was Jedi Master's point. Even with F/Z, I've seen a handful of people pass on watching it because they're so put-off by the franchise due to the some of the more obnoxious Type-Moon fans. Thankfully, I've never personally known any of these fans for Fate or Type-Moon, but even I'm aware of the stereotype. |
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Rhyono
Posts: 1039 |
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@Key You tried to close a quote with a spoiler tag. You're not alone though; I've tried closing spoiler tags with bold tags.
[EDIT: Ugh! Fixed.  - Key]
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Beized
 Posts: 129 |
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I think you'd be hard pressed to find many people who agree with this statement, I'm certainly not among them. If nothing else, I will concede that Shiro is an interesting and ambitious character. What Nasu attempted to do with Shiro was take the stereotypical starry eyed youth that wants to be a hero of justice, and blown that obsession out to a level were it becomes a mental disorder. Unfortunately, when you take a trope and try to expand on it to make something interesting and insightful, its relatively easy to lose your footing and simply become the trope (e.g. Haruhi and Moe). This failing is compounded in the animated versions, but the original VN is not free from it either. The reason why this issue is such a problem in the animated versions has to do with how Shiro's character is developed in the VN. Its easy to chop Fate/Stay night into three parts and just say "This route is Saber's, this route is Rin's, and this one is Sakura's", but Shiro's story, his journey, and by extension his development as a character, is very much the whole of Fate/Stay night combined, made evident by the enforced route order. In the first route, Fate, Shiro is totally dominated by his desire to be a hero. In the second route, Unlimited Bade Work, Shiro is confronted with the reality of what living only for his desire to be a hero really means. In the final route, Heaven's Feel, Shiro has to incorporate his ideals into his life in such a way that lets him live like a real person, with desires and motivations that are not solely altruistic. He develops from essentially the idea of heroism in human form, to a human that embodies the ideals of heroism. Its not a perfect story, but its a great, engrossing, intoxicatingly atmospheric one. The problem then is that there is no Heaven's Feel anime, so if anime is your only window into Fate/Stay night you have been given two thirds of a bigger story disguised as separate stories and then been asked what you think. |
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Errinundra
Moderator
 Posts: 6528 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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@ Beized,
I think your thesis about the Fate / Stay Night anime not having the space to develop Shirou in the way the three arcs of the visual novel do, is appealing. I can't say more than that because I haven't read the visual novel. I will say, however, that the comic and harem elements of the anime also get in the way. Similarly, the Unlimited Bladeworks movie is unconvincing in his portrayal thanks to its foregrounding of the action sequences (and also the lack of time available). On top of that, the three arcs of the visual novel, so far as I understand them, aren't sequential - they're alternative tellings. If I'm correct then it isn't appropriate to say Shirou develops from child/hero to adult/realist over the course of the three arcs. We can evaluate whether his development is convincing within each individual arc. (In a similar vein, it's something people tend to overlook with Higurashi When They Cry or even the groundhog day sequences in Steins;Gate.) We can, however, ask if Nasu's themes are convincingly developed but, not having seen the visual novel, I can't answer that. I think you're being unfair to Haruhi. One of the wonders of that franchise is that it deftly blends its genre awareness with its story telling, characterisation and risk taking (although there's at least one grand failure on that score). Although The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya prompted a strong emotional response from me, and is thus the nearest the franchise comes to falling back on the moe trope, it never becomes a moe-fest the way F/SN too often seems little more than a shounen tournament series with harem elements. Anyway, I think I'm straying too far from the real subject of this thread: Fate / Zero.
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Boomerang Flash
 Posts: 1021 |
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The three routes are sequential in the gameplay sense--a player must play through the Fate route to unlock the UBW route, then he must play through the UBW route to unlock the Heaven's Feel route. In this way, the player gets characterization for Shirou (and to some extent Rin) in a sequential manner.
They are alternate retellings of the same time interval though. |
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