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Does Noir have to do with Madlax, and which did you prefer?


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Boomer





PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:07 am Reply with quote
Key wrote:
Although I liked Madlax as a character, did generally like the series, and thought it finished strong, Noir is the better series. It starts much stronger, paces itself better, makes more sense, and more consistently and effectively establishes its mood for most of the series. Madlax does catch up in its final half-dozen or so episodes, but it took too long getting there. It's also hurt in the comparison by not escaping the shadow of Noir until its final few episodes and not having the byplay between its main characters from the very beginning.

The main difference is that Madlax has a more focused plot as opposed to the meandering and frequently episodic storyline of Noir. The action scenes in Madlax are more realistic in comparison to the predictable, Hollywood-style gunfights in Noir where Mireille and Kirika mow down dozens of machine gun-wielding assassins who always manage to shoot near their feet. Madlax herself and Margaret Burton are rounded characters who undergo development in the series while Mireille and Kirika remain one-dimensional killing machines throughout, and unlikeable ones at that. Madlax also has interesting and sympathetic male characters, which Noir entirely lacks. I think it's obvious where I am going with this: Madlax is the better series of the two IMHO.
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bonbonsrus



Joined: 15 Oct 2003
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Location: Michigan, USA
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:10 am Reply with quote
I agree with the last thing Key said, anyone who likes one will definitely like the other.

I own both Madlax and Noir, and I have to say, depending on my mood or the day I may prefer one over the other.
I do agree Noir seemed to catch my interest a bit sooner than Madlax, however Madlax ended stronger I felt.

I haven't yet seen El Cazador, however, I have consistently heard others say it wasn't as strong as either Madlax or Noir. I would still watch it simply being thrown into the same style as the others.


Last edited by bonbonsrus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Key
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:47 am Reply with quote
Boomer wrote:
The action scenes in Madlax are more realistic in comparison to the predictable, Hollywood-style gunfights in Noir where Mireille and Kirika mow down dozens of machine gun-wielding assassins who always manage to shoot near their feet.


I'd like to think you're joking here, but apparently you're not. Madlax's gunfights strain credibility to the breaking point - moreso even than Noir's - and Madlax certainly does her share of mowing down people she shouldn't be able to mow down. (But that she can is connected to her secret, isn't it?) Madlax does try much harder to make its action scenes also look sensual and sexy, although whether that's a plus or not is left to individual viewers to decide.

Quote:
Madlax herself and Margaret Burton are rounded characters who undergo development in the series while Mireille and Kirika remain one-dimensional killing machines throughout, and unlikeable ones at that.


"Unlikeable" I could maybe see, depending on your viewpoint. But one-dimensional? Not developed? Is Mireille really the same person at the end of the series that she is at the beginning? Did Kirika not discover herself (for better and worse) in the later stages?

And don't give Margaret Burton too much credit here if you're going to give Kirika none. Their development paths were pretty similar; Margaret just started from a state some might find more personable. (Frankly, I found her flightiness to be annoying.) Madlax does show more, but I've already recognized her as one of the plusses.

Quote:
Madlax also has interesting and sympathetic male characters, which Noir entirely lacks.


This I can't argue, although I question how much it actually made a difference since Madlax is still nearly as focused on its central girls as Noir.
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Aylinn



Joined: 18 Nov 2006
Posts: 1684
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:15 pm Reply with quote
bonbonsrus wrote:
I agree with the last thing Key said, anyone who likes one will definitely like the other.
others.


That is not really true when I saw first episode of Madlax the fact it was so similar to Noir turned me off. It looked like I got almost the same story and characters and the only change was that it took place somewhere else and characters had a new look.
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iggentleman



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 33
Location: Virginia
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:30 pm Reply with quote
I liked all three of Beetrain's Gw/G. Saw El Cazador first, then Noir, and last Madlax (just sent the last Netflix disk back two weeks ago)

Of the three, I liked Noir the best, followed closely by El Cazador and Madlax.
Noir - Very good story. Good action. Wanted to find out what would happen next. Relationship between Mireille and Kirika started cool and stayed that way until late in the story. Humor tended to be dry.
Madlax - Good action. The story was interesting/confusing enough for me to want to find out what the h*ll is going on. Characters were a bit stiff, but funnier than Noir. The dual story line was a bit awkward, but they pulled it together adequately by the end.
El Cazador de la Bruja - Very good story even if it was mostly a road trip. Very good characters, good interaction between Nadia and Elis. Good side character with Ricardo and Lirio. The fight scenes with Nadia were more plausible than the ones in Noir and Madlax (no standing in the middle of a rain of bullets.) Much more comic than the other two.

Thinking it over, I'd say Noir and El Cazador are a tie. Wink
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Porcupine



Joined: 21 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:52 pm Reply with quote
> Although I liked Madlax as a character, did generally like the series, and thought it finished strong, Noir is the better series.

I personally thought Madlax was way better than Noir.

> It starts much stronger

Disagree.

> paces itself better

Disagree.

> makes more sense

Agree.

> more consistently and effectively establishes its mood for most of the series.

To me both Noir and Madlax accomplish this equally well.

> Regardless of which you like better, though, the two series are similar enough that anyone who likes one of them will almost certainly like the other.

Although I agree they are somewhat similar shows, I disagree with this. One of my friends in particular thinks Noir is unwatchable crap but Madlax is one of his favorite animes of all-time. There are several reasons why this could happen. Just one of them is the art style. As I commented earlier, Madlax has a much more modern and evolved character art style than Noir, which is rather shapeless and average. Another reason: for half of the series Noir is what I call a 'working show' where the main characters engage in similar tasks, missions, or their "job" for each episode. If you miss an episode you are likely to be able to get away with it without missing any important developments. While Madlax may have a slowly developing story, it is constantly evolving and if you miss an episode you will probably wonder what happened in the last episode.

I'm not trying to create an argument or be rebellious or anything so I hope no one takes offense at what I said. I'm just stating my personal observations and opinions.
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HitokiriShadow



Joined: 09 May 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:47 pm Reply with quote
Aylinn wrote:
bonbonsrus wrote:
I agree with the last thing Key said, anyone who likes one will definitely like the other.
others.


That is not really true when I saw first episode of Madlax the fact it was so similar to Noir turned me off. It looked like I got almost the same story and characters and the only change was that it took place somewhere else and characters had a new look.


Almost the same, really? As already mentioned, Noir's duo met in the first episode while Margaret doesn't even appear in the first episode of Madlax at all. Madlax is a mercenary while Noir's leads are assassins; not the same thing as the first episode makes clear. I also don't recall any civil wars in Noir. Yeah, totally the same.

For the record, I fall into the Madlax >>> Noir camp.
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Boomer





PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:29 am Reply with quote
Although the point has already been made, I couldn't agree more that Madlax has a superior art style, not just the character designs but the background drawings. The animation is richer and more textured. Then there is the soundtrack. Don't get me wrong, I think Noir's soundtrack is great too, but the songs were repeated so often that I grew sick of them by the end. While the music in Madlax is repetitive as well, its slower and moodier sound did a better job of establishing the atmosphere of the series and helped to convey the more brooding and introspective nature of the characters.

I found all the characters in Madlax to be more human and easier to relate to than their counterparts in Noir. A metaphysical twist offered a completely unrealistic but internally consistent explanation for Madlax's sharpshooting skills. Although I am not a huge fan of the supernatural whenever it is used as a convenient plot device to advance a story, it was well integrated in this case and enhanced the story rather than detracted from it. In Noir, we were not given a satisfactory explanation for what made Mireille and Kirika so great apart from their spoiler[membership in the secret society.]

Madlax does a better job with its secondary characters: Limelda immediately comes to mind. Her motivation for pusuing Madlax is made clear at the beginning, yet she is also a flawed character who shows vulnerability toward the end of the series. In Noir, we get Chloe who is essentially a third Little Miss Terminator facing off against the other two Little Miss Terminators.
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Key
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:18 am Reply with quote
Boomer wrote:
Then there is the soundtrack. Don't get me wrong, I think Noir's soundtrack is great too, but the songs were repeated so often that I grew sick of them by the end. While the music in Madlax is repetitive as well, its slower and moodier sound did a better job of establishing the atmosphere of the series and helped to convey the more brooding and introspective nature of the characters.


I will not dispute that Madlax's soundtrack does its job well; when I reviewed the series, I commented quite favorably on its effectiveness towards the end of the series, and in the last few episodes it does mix its sound up more, too. Noir's soundtrack is the one I own on CD and at least occasionally listen to, however.

Quote:
In Noir, we were not given a satisfactory explanation for what made Mireille and Kirika so great apart from their spoiler[membership in the secret society.]


Mireille had a background spoiler[connected to the Soldats] and was just generally very good (but not superhumanly so) at what she did. Does she need anything more to make her "great?" Madlax, by comparison, depended on that supernatural crutch (well, and being damn sexy, too). Kirika, as is made clear over the course of the series, is special simply because spoiler[she's been indoctrinated as an assassin since a very young age]. Again, nothing supernatural about it, unlike with Margaret Burton. IOW, Noir's characters, despite the whole Soldats stuff, are much more grounded in reality. From what you're saying, perhaps the more fantastical aspect of Madlax is part what makes it appeal more to you?

Quote:
Madlax does a better job with its secondary characters: Limelda immediately comes to mind. Her motivation for pusuing Madlax is made clear at the beginning, yet she is also a flawed character who shows vulnerability toward the end of the series. In Noir, we get Chloe who is essentially a third Little Miss Terminator facing off against the other two Little Miss Terminators.


Mostly won't dispute this, but I would point out that Noir is inherently more exclusively focused on its two central characters than what Madlax is, so it's only natural that Madlax's side characters would be better-developed. And although I never much cared for Chloe, don't sell her short. She showed a lot more depth and vulnerability near the end. Same for Altena.

Really, the only major advantage Madlax has over Noir for me is a much better set of Extras in its DVD releases. The "Conversations With SSS" bits are often a riot, and the sock puppet Easter Eggs are priceless.
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Boomer





PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:20 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
IOW, Noir's characters, despite the whole Soldats stuff, are much more grounded in reality. From what you're saying, perhaps the more fantastical aspect of Madlax is part what makes it appeal more to you?

The supernatural aspect of Madlax appeals to me more in the given context, yes. By remaining grounded in reality, Mireille and Kirika's abilities, not to mention Chloe's knife-throwing skills, come off as less convincing because no plausible explanation is offered. And I don't consider the Soldats to be convincing. By throwing reality out the window and introducing the supernatural, Madlax offers an explanation of sorts to its titular character's superhuman ablities that is consistent with the theme of the show. Madlax's abilities actually appear less superhuman than those of Mireille and Kirika because the body count is much lower than in Noir.

Not everything that is done with this mystical conceit is to my liking. The fate of the Carrosea Doon character was a bit of a letdown. However, if I overlook such minor flaws, Madlax worked much better for me on all levels.
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Key
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:23 pm Reply with quote
Boomer wrote:
The supernatural aspect of Madlax appeals to me more in the given context, yes. By remaining grounded in reality, Mireille and Kirika's abilities, not to mention Chloe's knife-throwing skills, come off as less convincing because no plausible explanation is offered.


If you're still saying this, then apparently I entirely wasted my time trying to show you in my previous post that the series does offer plausible explanations for it. Making a further attempt seems pointless.

Quote:
Madlax's abilities actually appear less superhuman than those of Mireille and Kirika because the body count is much lower than in Noir.


We're clearly not going to agree on this, either.
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Vortextk



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:40 pm Reply with quote
Well, I'm not sure about Boomer, but the reason Noir seemed so far fetched was that it was just animated poorly in most action scenes. Both women stand still, or pop out from behind a pillar, get off two clips of ammo without EVER moving again, and the entire team of bad guys end up dead. It was unrealistic perhaps because it was also cheaper to do it that way. The only reason I finished the anime was to finish the story, the action had me rolling my eyes and yawning.(Especially at the amazing amount of mistakes and bad situations Mireille landed in through out the series) It usually had a good setup but very poor delivery of "stand in one place and shoot till everyone dies". It just never seemed like they were any good save for a very few exceptions.

If it was due only to budget you can't truly fault the anime as they would have done it better if they could, but the end product is still the same.
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Kruszer



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:40 pm Reply with quote
Does any of that really matter, here let me inject a little cliffnote into the conversation. They both have hot girls with guns invincible unless the plot calls for them to be otherwise, they both have entertaining stories, they both have Yuki Kajiura OST....instant win in my book enough said. This is Bee Train we're talking about it's not like anything they make is to be watched for it's realism and believabillity, they're fantasies created to make you look artsy and make you say "LOL That's so impossible but so f****** awesome!" and drink in the sight of all the gorgeous women. Laughing
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Zirdante



Joined: 16 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:49 am Reply with quote
"Madlax are more realistic in comparison to the predictable, Hollywood-style gunfights in Noir "

spoiler[In the end, when madlax goes "I can't be killed" -mode and starts to literally dodge bullets, its totally realistic right?]
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Zalis116
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:00 am Reply with quote
Key wrote:
Although I liked Madlax as a character, did generally like the series, and thought it finished strong, Noir is the better series. It starts much stronger, paces itself better, makes more sense, and more consistently and effectively establishes its mood for most of the series. Madlax does catch up in its final half-dozen or so episodes, but it took too long getting there. It's also hurt in the comparison by not escaping the shadow of Noir until its final few episodes and not having the byplay between its main characters from the very beginning.

Regardless of which you like better, though, the two series are similar enough that anyone who likes one of them will almost certainly like the other.
**
Really, the only major advantage Madlax has over Noir for me is a much better set of Extras in its DVD releases. The "Conversations With SSS" bits are often a riot, and the sock puppet Easter Eggs are priceless.
Those lines basically sum up my thoughts on Noir vs. Madlax. Maybe it was because I first saw Noir sometime in 2003 when I was fairly new to anime and thus less "jaded," but Noir drew me in almost instantly with its 1st-episode gunfight, introductions of mysterious characters, and hints of a backstory. I even liked seeing that watch flashback and hearing that same music track until episode 20 or so. Madlax had a flashy intro, yeah, but it felt like it was trying too hard, and like Key said the lack of direct interaction between Madlax and Margaret until much later in the series hurt its appeal to me. As far as realism goes, they both had their share of fantastic, implausible gunfights, but to me, Noir was "less unrealistic" in the end. I know it's entertainment and it doesn't have to be realistic, as I've said of other series. But when you set up a show about skilled assassins who use real weapons (as opposed to fantasy action series like s-CRY-ed or E's Otherwise), some believability is necessary for all that "skill" setup to be relevant. And I agree with Zirdante in that Madlax's fights got pretty ridiculous in the end. In fact, the whole ending of Madlax pissed me off for reasons I can't quite recall. And even though I recently got the DVDs thanks to TRSI's recent mega-sale, I'm loathe to watch the series again. (Otoh, I did recently rewatch Noir with no regrets.)

But the first thing I did when those boxes arrived was open up Madlax Vol. 6 to watch that sock-puppet video. (Noir Vol. 6 had one too btw, same place, same method of activation) Seeing Funimation's recent Claymore announcement video made me think, "Man, Funi's got a long way to go if they want to catch up to ADV in the realm of 'company culture' extras." Especially since nothing will ever beat ADV's "Behind the Scenes" video in Colorful.
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