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ANN Book Club I: Eve no Jikan.


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GeminiDS85



Joined: 10 Jul 2009
Posts: 391
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:16 pm Reply with quote
I’m being slowly bludgeoned to death by evil Japanese women who hide under the guise of the title of teacher, so I haven’t had any time to analyze the next episodes. However, try reading through this article by MIT Professor Sherry Turkle and see if you can draw any parallels to Eve no Jikan.

Best of luck!

Edit: Check out some of Japan's famous robots, past and present:
Karakuri Ningyou
HRP-4C (1)
HRP-4C (2)
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marie-antoinette



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 4136
Location: Ottawa, Canada
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:34 pm Reply with quote
I'm a bit late, since I only just got the chance to watch the next episodes today.

One issue I have with this series is an issue that's true of a lot of sci-fi actually. So far, the characters just feel pretty flat and more focus is put on the theme than development, which generally isn't something I'm a huge fan of. Yes, the themes so far are interesting but I need something emotional to care about.

Interestingly enough, the nameless android in ep 4 has so far been the character I cared the most about. His story had more emotion to it than it probably had any right to have. Which of course makes the stories with the more "human" characters seem even flatter.

The said, I am still enjoying the series. I just wish it had a bit more to it than just the theme of robotic life that we've all seen done before, albeit it not quite in this way (at least I haven't).
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GeminiDS85



Joined: 10 Jul 2009
Posts: 391
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:54 am Reply with quote
Simulation

The notion that software could achieve a level of sentience that is similar to a human being is certainly a compelling concept, but how would we be able to discern the difference between sentience and simulation?

What factors help construct our perception of reality is a question that applies to both our understanding of ourselves and the world around us. We understand ourselves as well as the world around us based on acquired knowledge – knowledge gained from past experiences with ourselves and the systems we interact with. Without getting overly confusing, one of the easiest ways to think about this is how to extract meaning from the codes and signs that we come across in our everyday lives. In relating this to Eve no Jikan, try thinking about the relationship between form and object, codes and signs, and how our mind constructs and construes meaning from them. Sammy in Eve no Jikan looks and acts like a human being, but "she" is still machinery that runs on software, so why do we easily accept "her" actions and behavior as a form of sentience?

Think about a human being as a text from which to extract meaning. When the signs and codes exuded by a robot perfectly simulate the same processes that allow us to accept other human beings as sentient, wouldn’t it be a logical assumption to believe that sentience is present?

Well, not exactly.

The question of whether or not the software is actually sentient or is just a really accurate simulation is one that doesn’t have an answer, but in returning to my original question, how would we be able to tell the difference between the two? When the worn-out robot appears at the café, it is easily distinguishable as a robot because of visual and auditory codes that exist on its exterior. Basically, it doesn’t look or behave like a human. To put this into perspective, think about why we accept other human beings as sentient?

Easy answer: I am sentient and I am human, so when I observe similar codes from other humans, I contextualize their behaviors based on a projection of my own perception of self. The codes bear the fruit of meaning only in play within the larger system—the system in this context being the idea of self.

Something to think about for the last two episodes
“Additionally, there are two points pertaining to Levy’s summary of the research conducted by Hazan and Shaver that necessitate further elucidation:

1.) Individual differences in adult attachment behavior are reflections of the expectations and beliefs people have formed about themselves and their close relationships, on the basis of their attachment histories. These ‘working models’ are relatively stable and, as such, may be reflections of early experiences with a caregiver (Levy 27).

The ‘attachment history’ of the player seems to also be a seminal factor in allowing the immersion process to fully commence. We can postulate that the majority of otaku interacting with games such as Clannad and The Idolm@ster have been routinely exposed to the character archetypes and narrative paradigms that these games are utilizing. For a child who grew up constantly immersed in the fantasy worlds of anime and manga, it would not seem unlikely that these types of media played a caregiver-like role in their development. If we are to accept that a person’s ‘attachment history’ is a seminal influence in how they construct relationships later in life, it seems highly plausible that a person who spent their entire youth surrounded by characters from manga and anime would be predisposed to forming an attachment to those kinds of images later on in life.” (14)

errinundra wrote:
With everyone concentrating their thoughts on android / human questions I thought I might bring up perhaps Yasuhiro Yoshiura's most characteristic theme - new knowledge breaking down old belief systems. It seems to be an obsession for him in the way that separation is an obsession for Makoto Shinkai.


Another reoccurring theme that I have noticed in some of his works is a focus on population.
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abunai
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Joined: 05 Mar 2004
Posts: 5463
Location: 露命
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:40 pm Reply with quote
GeminiDS85 wrote:
Simulation

The notion that software could achieve a level of sentience that is similar to a human being is certainly a compelling concept, but how would we be able to discern the difference between sentience and simulation?

By definition, any simulation of sufficiently advanced degree would be able to pass an extended Turing test, and would therefore be indistinguishable from genuine sentience. Barring invasive methods, we would have no idea whether the seeming "person" were a machine or a "real" person.

The classic response to this conundrum, of course, is that the same applies to everyone. It is an entirely reasonable proposition to suggest that one is completely alone in a universe populated only by one person -- all others being simulacra. The theory satifies all available evidence, and is essentially irrefutable. However, this is such a barren and lonely worldview that anyone who genuinely holds it is usually viewed (by the rest of us) as mentally ill. Or possibly, a holy man.

I would suggest that the only sensible approach to machine sentience is to accept it as genuine, if it is capable of passing a Turing test (or a similar measure of simulated sentience). Because, after all, once you are at that level, you'll never know whether it is "genuine" sentience or not, anyway.

- abunai
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wanderlustking



Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Posts: 449
Location: Bozeman, Montana
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:16 pm Reply with quote
The weirdest thing about the Turing test, is that we've already created bots that can adapt and learn how to do better. Cleverbot for instance; while not perfect by any means, it's ability to learn can be almost creepy at times. I don't know if anyone remembers the Ben Drowned Creepy Pasta, but for a while after the first couple of posts, enough people were flooding cleverbot with Ben related messages that it got really good at responding in kind.
This is where it starts, cute little apps and webpages; but the technology will evolve over time. I'm interested to see where all this goes in the future, and what (if any) applications it has beyond mere entertainment value.
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Tris8



Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 2114
Location: Where the rain is.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:20 am Reply with quote
Those last 2 eps were really good! One thing was made pretty clear at the end of the last ep when the Time of Eve cafe's judgement was labeled as pending. It seems that the meaning behind Time of Eve is intended to mean a time of transition. Also, people observed before that the majority of the people out and about were robots, and that the No Robot zones were virtually deserted. In the last episode there is a robot with a human in the No Robot zone. I guess this goes to show that Rikuo's perception of robots isn't the only one changing.

One thing I was really thinking about was how so many people fear/look down on the androids, yet an android like Shimei was created. In all of human societies children are cherished and protected, so it really struck me that they would entrust the raising of children to an android, yet not consider him a person. Then that got me thinking about house slaves on plantations, and how black nurses were entrusted completely with almost every aspect of their white master's children's lives. Yet they often weren't considered people either.

Honestly, the androids remind me a lot of the house elves from Harry Potter Anime hyper They develop the ability to think and feel (or at least they think they can think, but that could be said for humans too). But even when their personalities and individuality grow, they tend to hide it from humans. Why is this? Do they not trust humans, hate them? That can't be the case, at least not from what we were shown. In fact, all the robots had an uncanny devotion to their masters. Even when mistreated, either purposefully or from ignorance they stay loyal. Thinking whether that is out of love/affection or because of the First Law (protect humans) is interesting. I think it is a combination.
The exact reason for this deception may remain a mystery, but we know almost for certain that androids are doing it to protect humans.
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Errinundra
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Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Posts: 6516
Location: Melbourne, Oz
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:43 am Reply with quote
Warning: this post could be seen as a bit spoilerific. I am posting under the assumption that, as agreed, people have watched episodes 5 & 6 before reading this.

Episode 5 - especially when Rikuo has his Road to Damascus moment - must be close to my favourite 15 minutes of anime. (And episode 6 isn't far behind.) Do you ever have times when watching anime where you are inwardly urging one of the characters to do something? Towards the end of the episode, Sammy walks up the stairs humming Time of Tenderness to herself and then stands in the laneway with her characteristic glum expression. The first time I watched the episode I was silently urging her: "Smile. Go on, smile." And she does! Absolutely magical.



Do you think she loves Rikuo? Shortly before this Shimei explained to Rikuo his feelings for Chie:

Quote:
She needs me. So I devote myself to her. She is everything to me. My only wish is to make her happy.


If that isn't love then I'm not sure what love is. Is this what Sammy feels towards Rikuo?

***

Earlier I posted a couple of images and requested that people remember them. The next two images are also from episode 5.



Two androids ignore the "No Robots" sign. It seems that androids are beginning to act independently (as Setoro wonders to Dr Ashimori). It's not only tha androids that are acting differently: during the end credits, Naoko - Rikuo's cynical, self-centred, anti-android sister - thanks Sammy for helping her with her shopping and puts a flower in her hair.



How Sammy got her hair wet. Oh, Rikuo! Well, at least it was one of the triggers for his Road to Damascus moment. Masaki undergoes his conversion in the following episode.

***

The movie compilation has a new end song by Yuki Kajiura, accompanied by a series of images of Nagi. Here's a collage for those who haven't seen it. (To me this isn't a spoiler. The movie has minimal changes compared with the ONA. The end credits and a short coda that follows are the only significant additions. They are open to individual interpretation.)



Here is my interpretation. (I'm not claiming it's definitive so humour me, please.) I believe the man in the pictures is Shiotsuki (as mentioned by Dr Ashimori). I believe he is Nagi's father - they also appear together in the coda. The woman in the right end panel in the middle row is Dr Ashimori, Nagi's mother. The parents have fought and separated. They were the developers of the two android applications: code:LIFE and code:eve. Shiotsuki also developed the cyber notice board used in Nagi's various cafes. The Ethics Committee targeted Shiotsuki and severely injured Nagi as well, leading to public censure of the committee. The two android applications contain secretly embedded subroutines that allow androids to develop independence. They also direct them, when certain conditions are met, to seek out the cyber notice board and, hence, Nagi and her cafe.

Finally, I have a conundrum. Towards the end of episode 6, as Rikuo makes his optimistic speech about the future of human / android relations, you can see that one of the pictures on the wall of the cafe is the child's drawing of Katoran, the "nameless" robot. How on earth did it get there?

(Again, I hope people don't mind all the images - anime is a visual medium after all.)

This is really the end, I promise. I try to limit myself to one coffee a day but I kept finding myself brewing coffee as I watched these episodes again.
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thetwilightsound



Joined: 22 Jan 2011
Posts: 4
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:54 am Reply with quote
I apologize for intruding into your club, but I have a question that I'm dying to have answered, and I felt that this group would be the best to ask.

I literally just finished Eve no Jikan in one sitting, ending the last episode no longer than 15 minutes before posting this. It has easily become one of my favorite series of all time.

I just wanted to ask if anyone has read the light novel for the series; and if so, I was wondering if the novel gave any extension to the story or provided an ending.

I'm dying to know more, and so far the only closure I have was from the last few posts on this thread.

I know this thread is over a year old, and I'm not sure if this message will reach any of you. This is my first time posting on an ANN board. I just found this series to be nothing short of beautiful, and if the novel provides any extension on the story, or even better, an ending, I will be determined to put its completion on my bucket list, no matter how long it takes for me to finally learn Japanese well enough to read it.
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